Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Document your project with images, pictures, etc., and share with others.
DriveTeamDundee
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:35 am
ECU Model: S60 Pro

Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by DriveTeamDundee »

So this is our car for 2016, seamless steel space frame with a CBR 600 RR (07) lump in it. Custom intake and exhaust manifolds, all made in house by us. Custom fuel rail, catch cans etc. Basically the whole car is made by us including the carbon fibre nose cone!

We're running the DTA s60 ECU, original CBR injectors, most the same sensors off the CBR.

We just got the car running on EFI for the first time (thanks to everyone on the forum that helped), runs like s*** but they do have to have a 20mm intake restrictor. Checked all coilpacks and seem fine, new NGK plugs were put in it as well so not sure where the problem lies. Possibly the map, not sure. Haven't done any tuning before with DTA or other ECU programs.

We have a problem that the car just changes throttle by its self, we have to set the RPM limit at say 4500 otherwise it screams its head off, and jumps up and down the rev range.. We've done the throttle dead zones, and set it to 10% as idle but it still jumps about.

Cylinder 2 is running a lot hotter than the others as well.

Anyway here is some photos!

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stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by stevieturbo »

As ever basic basic basic setup. Have you performed basic setup steps ?

If it is wanting to rev so high, the throttle is open too far or you have a similar huge air leak. There is no other reason for it to rev so hard at "idle"

You say it runs like crap.....maybe be a bit more specific ?

You say cyl2 runs hotter....what brings you to this conclusion ?

Do you have any means of monitoring mixtures ?

You mention plugs, do these look fairly normal ?

Not quite sure what you're referring to about throttle dead zones ?

Whilst I havent read any....some of these are bound to be helpful.







And whilst obviously Motec related....their webinars give good info on a lot of topics

https://www.youtube.com/user/MoTeCAustralia/videos

That might actually be one for Alex. Lots of basic questions get asked often....when a short video etc can explain a lot and easily be uploaded for new users to view.
Rob Stevens
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by Rob Stevens »

I guess most people could have this running beautifully in a few minuets, but do take time to read the manual, most of the answers are there and I guess the point of being a student is learning about it yourself, so perhaps do that first. Steve has sugested some places to look but it is very important to understand the fundamentals first.
If it is idling too high it is getting excessive air from somewhere and if you can't close the throttle body any more it must have a leak.
Don't understand the 10% as idle, this needs to be at 0%

Have you retained the standard throttle bodies as well as the new tiny one? have you somehow left a bung out or something?

Personally I'd be inclined to keep the original butterfly's and just the restriction, I think the throttle response would be most superior, particularly at low engine speed. Unless what you have done is mandated?
PhillipM
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 5:30 am
ECU Model: S80 Pro
Distributor: DTA UK
Firmware Version: 73

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by PhillipM »

You have an air leak, probably into cylinder two if it's running hotter...
DriveTeamDundee
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:35 am
ECU Model: S60 Pro

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by DriveTeamDundee »

Yeah sorry I just put this post up to give people an idea of what we were doing! Just to show what the car looks like etc.

I've never done any setups, however Alex did supply us with a basic map to get the car running and go from there. Greatly appreciated!

Aye I agree haha, being a student I need to find my own way and learn through trial and error (to an extent) and researching myself, but like I say this is completely new ball game to me. I work on cars etc but it's all mechanical side. I've never tried to tune with program like DTASwin before, and it's very rushed at the moment so i've not been researching so much lately due to just trying to get the car running, also have other parts of uni to get through so yeah it's a slow process.

Appreciate the comments about the idling, I have an idea about where it could be from. The intake manifold was made from 4mm aluminium for the flange which will have probably warped from the heat. We don't have means to get it machined down, so double gasket might have to be a quick fix for now, not the best but I know.

The car runs bad mostly due to the restrictor, the throttle body we have is a given thing that we cannot change, so original bodies can't be used. It's just a butterfly valve with a TPS on top and 20mm diameter hole running to the intake.

How do I know cylinder 2 is hotter? Well I melted my finger print off when I touched cylinder 2's exhaust pipe :lol: We started it up, didn't run it for long then i quickly checked them, all 3 were the same but 2 was far hotter haha).

Our lambda is wired in (narrow band) but i'm not 100% if it's working as it's second hand (we don't have huge funds) but was working when taken off my old car. It's wired up so signal wire is to the sensor ground loop (as shown on the diagram) and then it only has another 2 wires (heater +, -, which aren't installed so could well be why its not reading but after a while of the car running still didn't get a reading.

When I said throttle dead zones I meant Throttle Stops, as in I set it using DTASwin. 10% throttle for idle is set on our throttle body adjustment bolt, and currently it's maxed out. So modifying could get this sorted though.

Plugs... well i've not got my deep socket to get the plugs, as I've not moved my tools to my new place and the team doesn't have one yet so can't check which would give a good indication of how its running but yeah..

@Steve thanks for the links, definitely want to try and pick up one of those books. And again thanks everyone else for their comments, yes it probably is painful seeing me try to get this to run but we've all got to start somewhere..

The car only started for first time on EFI last week, so i'm trying to sort out all the basic problems, then move onto actual tuning.
Last edited by DriveTeamDundee on Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
katana
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:08 pm
ECU Model: S60 Pro
Firmware Version: 29

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by katana »

Not surprised the lambda isn't reading with the signal output connected to ground! It has a dedicated input on the S60 to which it should go. I don't believe the sensor requires the heater ground be functional to get a signal but it may so best wire that to the common ground point also.
A narrow band isn't the best thing for engine set-up ie it'll tell up its rich or its lean but not to what degree - wideband is better is you probably know!
DriveTeamDundee
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:35 am
ECU Model: S60 Pro

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by DriveTeamDundee »

katana wrote:Not surprised the lambda isn't reading with the signal output connected to ground! It has a dedicated input on the S60 to which it should go. I don't believe the sensor requires the heater ground be functional to get a signal but it may so best wire that to the common ground point also.
A narrow band isn't the best thing for engine set-up ie it'll tell up its rich or its lean but not to what degree - wideband is better is you probably know!
Ah I see, wasn't sure as it was on the ground loop but yeah will get a direct wire running to pin 19 then.

Unfortunately thats all we have at the moment, due to funding. But plan to get a wideband.
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by stevieturbo »

You're wasting your time with an unheated narrowband ( or just a narrowband in general )

They dont start responding properly until there is a lot of heat in the exhaust...and sitting idling that wont happen, even on this hot cyl 2 lol.

So heater circuit is essential.

2 gaskets isnt a fix, I'd sooner use some good sealer and allow it to dry...but of course all flanges must be flat.
Rob Stevens
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by Rob Stevens »

I'm not sure that the throttle body is mandated as I recall one team using a thing they called a spike throttle, something like a rugby ball moving towards and away from a bell-mouth,
A good way to find air leaks is to squirt some fluid, wd40, water, around the suspect area and see if the note of the engine changes.

Yes and as for lambda get a wide band, you won't look back, I recommend that you wire it in to the fuel pump supply, works for me.

Appeal to some of the traders on here to give you a good deal for a sticker on the car?
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ignitionautosport
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:30 am
ECU Model: S80 Pro
Location: New Zealand
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Re: Drive Dundee Formula Student Car

Post by ignitionautosport »

Maybe you can jam that throttle body open and use it as a restrictor, and use the original throttles? Just a thought depending on rules.
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