Getting sequential to work

Discuss which Sensors work best with these ECUs and share how you are using inputs and outputs
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by stevieturbo »

Thing is, the ecu should be telling him where is is seeing the tooth in engine diagnostics page, but it sounds like it isnt for some reason.
Rob Stevens
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Rob Stevens »

I thought all ignition timing was taken from the crank, but I guess if it doesn't have a gap it can't, but my one does have a gap so it only uses the cam to see where each cylinder is in its cycle. unless it is using the cam to set out the ignition timing, that would just be very inaccurate?
Rob Stevens
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Rob Stevens »

I'm using twin spark, just to replicate the coil outputs to save rewiring, and this is fine in non-sequential if it makes any odds. I use wasted spark coils.
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by stevieturbo »

Rob Stevens wrote:I thought all ignition timing was taken from the crank, but I guess if it doesn't have a gap it can't, but my one does have a gap so it only uses the cam to see where each cylinder is in its cycle. unless it is using the cam to set out the ignition timing, that would just be very inaccurate?
If there is a TDC reference on crank, then every ecu I'm aware of that is the referenced used for ignition timing. It has to be really.

If the crank has no TDC reference, then the cam would be taken as main source as it would be the only TDC ( and cylinder ) reference. So yes there would be more scope for error here ( and baffling why the likes of Nissan, Honda and some others use a dizzy based crank/cam trigger on their engines which is taken via a timing belt !! )

Even in wasted spark ( if you're wasted, no twin spark should be needed ? )...if you have sequential active, ie cam trigger and not even COP, timing can still be controlled per cylinder as opposed to in reference to TDC only.
At least it can with other ecu's

Just because it's wasted spark and firing two sparks ( one good one bad ) it would still know cyl1, 2, 3, 4 etc is being fired and if trims are active these would still apply to the relevant cylinder. COP isnt needed for that.
Alex DTA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:03 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Distributor: DTA
Firmware Version: 79

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Alex DTA »

Rob Stevens wrote:I thought all ignition timing was taken from the crank, but I guess if it doesn't have a gap it can't, but my one does have a gap so it only uses the cam to see where each cylinder is in its cycle. unless it is using the cam to set out the ignition timing, that would just be very inaccurate?
Timing is from the crank, even with no gap. With no gap, the cam tooth is used to work out the angle.

As you know, if you want sequential injection, you need a cam. If the ECU then can't find the cam pulse, it shuts down. This may be what's happening to you.
Alex DTA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:03 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Distributor: DTA
Firmware Version: 79

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Alex DTA »

The problem is you have the wrong cam pattern for that flywheel mode. Attached is what it's looking for.

Unfortunately that mode is looking for the other tooth on the cam, which you don't have.

The good news is flywheel mode 21 works. Try that one.
Attachments
ROVER.jpg
Rob Stevens
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Rob Stevens »

Brilliant, it worked first time. I didn't even realise that crank mode 21 was another rover special.

Perhaps an improvement in future software might be to tell you what it sees rather than just its a known pattern!
But
Thanks Alex, very happy now.

So ok the next thing I tried was swinging the injector timing, fantastic using the knobs box even at idle, being able to rapidly change the setting and see the change in mixture. With lambda off I set it at -150 which appeared to make it the richest mixture. I was then able to go into the main fuel map and save 7% fuel to bring the lambda back to 1

Is that the right way to view the injector timing? and make adjustments?

Oh also idle quality is improved also.
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by stevieturbo »

I'm sure I read ages ago that was one way to try and tune injection timing.

Run a fixed amount of fuel, and tune til you get the richest reading...re-tune afr's then do it again kind of thing
At least in terms of using less fuel that's probably best. That isnt to say it will produce best power/torque on a dyno like that, but you'd think it would be close.

Or others just say to inject against the closed inlet valve. Simple as that really, but there's bound to be some times where injecting into a flowing airstream is better.
Rob Stevens
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:10 am
ECU Model: S100 Pro
Distributor: None-Coil On Plug :)

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by Rob Stevens »

At full power my injectors are at 80% so I can't see timing making any odds, so I'll carry on and do what I've done so far and as you have confirmed, just need to get the Mrs to drive the car on the motorway so I can set the timing for the sort of rpm/tps im interested in.
carsten
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:43 pm
ECU Model: S60 Pro
Firmware Version: 79.02

Re: Getting sequential to work

Post by carsten »

Hello my name is Carsten.
Sorry for my english.

I drive a Caterham with 1.6 K-Series.
(Jenvey DTH, Omegas, Farndon Rods, R400 mechanical cams,.....)

Now I have changed the ecu from S40 to S60.
I have the same Problem. Sequential will not work? :(

The engine runs still fine without sequential in flywheel mode 2 and 21.
I use the R500 flywheel. This matches with mode 2 in the DTA Manual.
https://caterhamparts.co.uk/other/1211- ... -r500.html
I use also the Rover OEM cam sensor.
In flywheelmode 21 I see follow in engine diagnostics:
Cam 1 sig. tooth 14
Cam 1 sig. angle 0
Cam pulses received is steadily increased when the engine runs.

When I turn the sequenial on the engine stops immediately.
I have tested different cam sensor positions in DTASwin. (0,10,20)
In the Swin manual the crank sensor position is 286 for mode 2.
I test it with a ignition lamp. My sensor Position is 290.
I am a little cofused with the sensor position because in older manuals (E48) and german translations the sensor Position for mode 2 is 96.
286-96=190-10 for one missing teeth = 180
Is this wrong by 180 degrees and therefore the cam Signal is wrong???
Here is the Swin Oscilloscope. The first cam tooth number is 14 then always 13.

Thank you in advance for help.
Regards
Carsten
crank 3 cam.jpg
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