Why's my beetle defying physics?

Give input on tuning as well as any tips and tricks you may have. Also feel free to share base mapping files for various engine types.
bazibbo
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:04 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by bazibbo »

Could it simply be a case of not setting the compensations before starting the n/a map? Though it would hardly have touched 100kpa without the turbo plumbed in.... I can see a few fuel compensations that would come into play.

So...

Stevie, thanks for that contact. I have already mailed him and will call him at some point to discuss things. Appreciated.

Until now and with variations on the same engine.... renault 5 carb, then injection - both with the S40, obviously ignition only then full ecu, I've spent way too much time, especially when neither really came up with the goods. I've now bypassed money and have resorted to other means to pay for dyno time... which has tied me in a little... but if I can't get the results...


Anyway, if I run TPS + REVS with a single compensation map, ditching the 2 for now, I'm guessing it should look a bit like this:

Image

Ignore the exact retard numbers for now, this is a quick mock up, but is this basically what you'd expect Rob?

I know you favour the simple 'one ring to rule them all' map, Stevie.... I'm not dissing it, life would be much simpler if I went that way... I could do with simple just now.
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
ECU Model: No ECU
Location: Norn Iron

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by stevieturbo »

100kpa is atmospheric. So this would be achieved at large throttle openings.

TBH, I havent a damn clue what your "tuner" has or hasnt done, because nothing so far makes any sense.
IMO you're just throwing money away going back to him.

Out of interest, has he selected to use the 20x14 compensation maps, or just the basic one shown above ?
bazibbo
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:04 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by bazibbo »

He's using the 20x14 compensation maps as per the other page.

I'd sooner he just used the simple one... start with a big brush and get the thing running right.
claggett
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:22 am
ECU Model: S40 Pro

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by claggett »

If you are going to sort it out before you start go to general engine settings an set the timing comps to degrees instead of % it makes easier at a glance to see what timing is being pulled out. (It works better for me)

Darren.
stevieturbo
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Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by stevieturbo »

bazibbo wrote:He's using the 20x14 compensation maps as per the other page.

I'd sooner he just used the simple one... start with a big brush and get the thing running right.

Was just querying in case he didnt actually have those ones selected. Just because there are numbers in the map, doesnt mean they are the ones in use

Just in case things arent actually as bad as they currently appear.
claggett
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:22 am
ECU Model: S40 Pro

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by claggett »

Bazibbo. I am quite sure that when you are using tps over rpm with compensations and you are in real time mapping (compensations set to standard) you are on boost say at 1bar of boost and you have to put 10ms of injector timing in dta will put 5ms in the actual map as it knows it has put 100% more in because of the compensations.
So no real need to map top end n/a and then play with boost compensations.
I am sure someone will come along and confirm if I am right or not. (I am no expert)

Darren
bazibbo
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:04 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by bazibbo »

Thanks Darren, sorry I got busy and have neglected my 'DTA Forum' responsibilities... partially busy, partially cos I was frustraited that I'd got nothing to report... etc.

Anyway, things are at last moving.

Well I was going to do a few tests , to make sure the laptop and the engine were talking the same language... but I had to sort a slightly embarassing issue where I've pushed a tinwear seal onto a spark plug and couldn't remove it, remove the plug or anything... its was a complete arse and was nearly an engine out job.

Anyway I lent a bit hard on the exhaust whilst creating a few access holes under the wing, and would you believe it.... pop... off comes the exhaust, held on by 2 bits of my bird shitesque welding.


Image

Its actually been rubbish from day one, there's clear evidence of carbon all the way round, not just in a slight crack. It was totally invisible too, I've been under there loads of times, and we even missed it as we welded on the boss for the lamda. Anyway, off it came and I got someone to weld it up properly..

Image

Its upwind of the lamda by 3 inches or so, so it must have been causing some effect... and although I wasn't running a closed loop, the car was obviously being setup by lamda.

Anyway, fitted the exhaust and noticed a difference in the AFR on boost... dipping into the 13's .... should be 12's. But only had a quick run out and as per usual it was bloody raining...

Had the car back on the rollers on the following friday, with the new 'non blowing' exhaust. I couldn't spend any time with them as I was in meetings all day, so simply dropped the car off. A few things became quickly obvious as I called to pick the car back up.

They rechecked the timing on the engine vs the laptop and found a 7 degree difference. This isn't an issue in itself, the rolling road is in some ways blind to numbers and the car could still be set up and running well whilst 7 degrees adrift.... would partially explain why it needed an indicated 17 degrees on boost though, when it should have been around 24! BUT.... you know

At this point, before I get shot down in flames, I need to add that I've I've asked on more than one occasion for it to be checked - I can't check it myself, I, and for that matter all my available sources of loan stuff, don't have the expensive strobe thats needed.

Still leaves a little bit of a taste, and yes, when funds allow I've got a few others lined up (ta, ;) )... anyway, more to come!




The repaired exhaust made a big differance to AFR / Lamda readings! And in fact I had been running lean, despite the lamda telling me I was fine!

Ok so where was I. Well we've suddenly found a good few horses and that's throughout the rev range. I've only had a short trip at this time but things were looking a lot better! I suspect the exhaust is the issue that's been giving me issues from day one.... and I mean from when I ran the Renault 5 carb, that couldn't be set up for my motor.

OK so where next.... well, I got carried away with myself... still a bit of detonation, but things were considerably better, so I had a day out..


Couldn't resist my first ever quarter mile event @ york raceway...

Image

Cr#pping myself at this point

Image

And best time of the day, 14.79 @ 91mph.

Image

Should be easy to improve on too, my tyres are a kind of hard plastic as opposed to rubber, althey did do a good job of looking after my gearbox!

Amazing to find that firstly a helmet does wonders for mechanical sympathy and secondly, that first gear isn't the messy on / off affair, when you start it with a load of revs.


So, final piece of the puzzle... I've just binned my 'odd' manifold pressure maps, switched to the basic 2 column fuel and advance settings - Filled in the correct numbers and wapped the closed loop on again (!)

would you believe it... all detonation immediately vanished!
Last edited by bazibbo on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bazibbo
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:04 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by bazibbo »

Sorry, did I say thanks for the help guys? probably not.

thanks though, really appreciate it. :D

So Why's my beetle defying physics?

1) An air leak before the lamda.

2) Slightly suspect mapping routine.
stevieturbo
Posts: 3577
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm
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Location: Norn Iron

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by stevieturbo »

I really hope you arent relying on closed loop to fix a bad map...that's asking for trouble, and DTA simply doesnt enrich fast enough to make it safe.

As for a timing light, basic ones really arent expensive these days

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powerspark-TL ... 19cfe4b9d6


At least though you're making progress. But please dont let whoever is tuning the car blow it up ! It should never have left the dyno while there was still detonation, and it should never have been raced with detonation.
bazibbo
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:04 pm
ECU Model: S40 Pro
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Why's my beetle defying physics?

Post by bazibbo »

The maps based on the existing, however I've running it overly rich and using the closed loop to pull fuel out. id got rid of all the detonation on boost, but was suffering with gentle and mid throttle pings.... And I'm pretty sure that over fuelling in the 'floating' manifold pressure adjustment map was the main culprit.

My timing lights pretty similar to that, I need a digital one or it simply reads incorrectly or oddly. I'll have one at some point though.
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