Tuning Transients

Give input on tuning as well as any tips and tricks you may have. Also feel free to share base mapping files for various engine types.
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86sixsix
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

stevie and i are at opposite ends of the 'how to map' instruction book. we have to be because of each of our car's needs...
FrankCorrado wrote:Now, speaking of "perfect" map. What is a perfect map for you? One for which in OL every cell hits its corresponding cell in the Lambda Target map? Or every cell makes the engine feel happy, no matter it's 13.8 real-time when it should be 14.7 in Target map? Cuz I am at the latter point, except maybe for cells I rarely pass through
erm... yeah... um... i dunno... i get what you mean though!

for me, OL = CL... they are the same... that's kinda the whole point isn't it!

when i was learning...it *had* to be AFR all the way. it is one of only 2 constants you can use as a point of reference to go back to learn from.
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

Got it!
I'll let it learn longer.

tnx
Frank
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86sixsix
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

FrankCorrado wrote:I'll let it learn longer.
*exactly* what i would be doing if i was you. with all transients off, remember :D just in case they fight!

steps:
1) let it learn so that no more corrections ever get generated
2) turn CL off
3) transients if necessary
4) turn CL back on but with teensy tiny scope... like 5% add or remove.

that gets you the best of both worlds without spending any money
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

Pretty much yes. I am sure CL would fight transients at this time, just looking at the logs how CL works and feeling of the car during transients, I know CL would fight DTA transients (not engine transients) and screw up my FCM for no good reason. So no point for me at this time, but I am preparing my steps for when it will be time. :)

I think in a way I could stop here and just run OL and try transients and keep it this way, but then I know I will turn back on the CL so that it could work on those imbalances like weather or other specific situations OL sometimes miss, and turning CL back on with transients on and a map slightly off the target AFRs, well you know better I do, it won't be a good mix. So let's make it learn more.

I found out that learning goes very fast in the first few weeks, say the first few hundred miles it learns quite fast. You can get a good working map out of anything in just a few hundred miles. But if you want OL to = CL, that will take much longer. :)
Frank
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VR6Turbo
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by VR6Turbo »

If you get a nice feeling map, leave it. Sometimes you can undo the good work you've done with itchy AFR fingers.... I've yet to drive a car that peforms exactly the same each and every time you use it.

By the sounds of it you can forget the boost regions. Jog on. Let's tackle the troublesome off idle flat spot.
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86sixsix
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

sounds like a damn good plan that, frank!

that's exactly how i use my CL. i use it to combat my really really rubbish slow and staggeringly poorly placed :oops: inlet temp sensor.
VR6Turbo wrote:I've yet to drive a car that peforms exactly the same each and every time you use it.
my car works exactly the same every time. the front bit f*cks off down the road without me and i get left in the road with a load of rusty french sh*t hahaha
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by stevieturbo »

FrankCorrado wrote:
The stevie way, I thought of something similar, increasing my entire map by say 50% fuel and see how the engine behaves in OL. Not the transients maps, the whole main fuel map! I mean if I increase by that much and I still get the same afr readings (too lean so engine bucks wildly), that would kinda be weird, hey? What would you think of that test? It's super quick to perform and does not alter my CL map tuning at all as CL would be off.
That is certainly not a way I would even contemplate mapping an engine. In fact, it is totally mental.
Why on earth would you even consider just increasing the entire map by any percentage, let alone a crazy 50% ????

Really, if you cant proceed in a common sense and simple way. Dont proceed at all.

and you certainly do not need to go near a dyno to tune transients.
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by stevieturbo »

86sixsix wrote:stevie and i are at opposite ends of the 'how to map' instruction book. we have to be because of each of our car's needs...
Not quite sure what that means.

I need a car that starts from cold. Drives from cold. And drives nicely and performs well all the time.

I dont see how anyone else would want or need anything different from that ?
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86sixsix
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

stevieturbo wrote: I dont see how anyone else would want or need anything different from that ?
same as my motor. remote starts from -15 ambient, drives perfect (i'd say better than factory - but look what factory it came from...) all the way up to 110 on the coolant. but i'll bet you 50p we used very different methods to get there!
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

stevieturbo wrote:Why on earth would you even consider just increasing the entire map by any percentage, let alone a crazy 50% ????
Simple: I want to see if it does something!

As I explained on the other forum a while back, my engine has something weird with DTA (did not do that with SDS system previously), when I tap the pedal it leans out half a sec and then richens half a second and then comes back to normal. Even if I turn on transients and use values like 50-60-70% it does not reduce the leanness in the first half of a second but it does richens even more the richness for the next half a second.

So becaue this is really really weird (like a delay nothing seems to fix), many people told me it's cuz my map does not have enough fuel in the cells I go through when I tap the pedal. So because it's too hard to check on highway by myself alone, I thought Ok, if it's really the base map the problem, then if I increase the entire map by 40% and I tap on the pedal, if people are right by saying it's the cells I run through that are too lean, well it should then not be too lean, cuz I added 40% everywhere and I did everywhere cuz I don't know which cells I will hit when I'll do the test.

Do you see my point? This is a "test" and nothing else for the sole purpose of understanding that stupid engine of mine for which no one on earth so far had a single clue why my engine behaves that weird way (described above). If my entire map is too rich, I should not hit 20AFR if I tap the pedal. That is what I want to test. If it works, then it means I can figure it out on my normal map by playing with fuel when I'll be ready to.

The thing is I don't trust it is only fuel. I think there is something else either DTA or mechanical. Therefore, a rich map will most probably still get those lean spots when I tap the pedal. That is what I want to see. Cuz if it's the case, what's the point of tuning transients if they can't fix the issue?

That's where I am going. And as I said, since it's a test and not tuning, I will simply tap on it once or twice and then revert back by -28.6% (that is the % you need to remove when you added 40% to get back to original fuel values) to get my normal map. This way I will see what happens and be able to know if it's fuel or something else. Very simple and it should tell me a lot.

I would be so stupid to spend hours trying to tune transients if no matter what I do cannot fix the problem cuz it's something else.

But I could not try that test yet. I got screwed today!!!!!!! I think the car did not like not being used for 1.5 weeks and when I started it, the cam sensor signal was erratic, shutting down the engine every time I was starting it. My RPM in-dash needle was also off by 100-150rpm. Uh??!?? The only thing I could do was to run batch. Fuel values are not the same in batch mode, for me they are 10-12% higher in average (but not the same everywhere). So I had to add between 10-15% of fuel everywhere, which screwed up my FCM!!! I realized that on the road while it was too late and my last backup of FCM table is outdated. I managed to get fuel values that required about less than 5% corrections at steady TPS, but it certainly changed all what the FCM learned. So I will have to drive for a lot more weeks to get a better map, probably still a couple of months. :(

Then I let the car turned off and restarted it at 62C water and miracle! The cam sensor signal was flawless! And the in-dash rpm needle was spot on!! What the hell?? Oh well.
Frank
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