Tuning Transients

Give input on tuning as well as any tips and tricks you may have. Also feel free to share base mapping files for various engine types.
FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

86sixsix wrote:keep driving it in CL with the transients off (as they are)... it'll come, frank dude.
That is exactly my plan for a long time. :)
But I am preparing my steps for when I will tune transients, hence the original purpose of this thread. I think I got many different things to do for tuning them and it's just a matter or waiting until I can do it. But I got a plan now.

It's just that I have a weird gut feeling about my transients that there may be something else involved other than just fueling. Or a setting outside main map and transients map. Hence the purpose of my stupid 40% test. I know it's stupid, but it costs nothing to do it, I got nothing to lose, I think I can learn from it and I don't see why an engine with lots of fuel would still buck, that's why I wanted another opinion.
86sixsix wrote:only when CL = OL in similar weather/what-have-you conditions can you consider progressing on to throttle pumps and the nitty-gritty pedal transitions and all that jazz. i'm sure i said this months ago...
Of course, that's my plan for ages, Rick.
But does it prevent me from testing an over fueled main map to feel how the engine responds?
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86sixsix
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

agree 100%. making changes and prodding buttons is indeed sometimes the only way to learn. but as you're realising with the CL japery and now this - patience is the only thing that's not in captain Warburton's instruction book. a slow, methodical approach is aways better than all-guns-blazing-do-or-die... so why not... add 10% across the whole map... have a play... add another 10% (not forgetting that that's gonna be a bigger increase...it's %'s still, yeah?)... ...and do it that way.

4 lots of 10 is gonna show more up than 1 lot of 40...say... remember the CL... lots and lots of small, managed changes rather than 1 big one!!

there's only 3 things it can be... air, spark or fuel. i'll assume there's oxygen across the pond so it's spark or fuel... do your fuel experiment... ...and if nothing decent happens... PUT THE FUEL BACK TO NORMAL and have a look at spark.

only ever change 1 thing at a time. ever.

(see - for my motors... they're all very finicky about partial throttle. there's a tiny window of spark and AFR that i *have* to work in. that's about 0.9 lambda and about 18-22 degrees. i go outside that window on EITHER fuel OR SPARK and it'll drive and behave like a startled elephant when i'm feathering it.)
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

4 changes of 10%, I didn't think about this one. :)
I'll have to calculate how much to remove after 4 changes of 10% to go back to normal map live while driving, but that is easy to do.

It may well be the same for me, a tiny window. If that's the case, I won't find that window until I have an almost perfect map. Which is ok, but I will know only if I try my test. :) Which I will soon or later.

Maybe I have too much timing, you know. You're right about spark in the equation, I didn't think about this one.

One thing at a time, now that I have a map setup for CL learning and I know what to do for not screwing it up, I'll try one little test at a time and see if I can learn something else, then go back to CL learning and do some meditation and yoga stuff about what I would have learned with the small tests. loll

And then much later, I'll use your and stevie's tips to really tune transients.
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by 86sixsix »

heheh... just to re-iterate... 4 additions of 10% is not 40% just in case heehee

1 + 10% = 1.1
1.1 + 10% = not 1.2, yeah - it's 1.21...
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Wally
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by Wally »

FrankCorrado wrote:4 changes of 10%, I didn't think about this one. :)
I'll have to calculate how much to remove after 4 changes of 10% to go back to normal map live while driving, but that is easy to do.
Wouldn't it be easier to just save a copy of the map after each adjustment then you could go back to whatever you want.
I saved after every alteration and labled it accordingly.
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

That's what I do, but you cannot load maps while the engine is running and I may not be able to shut it down, depending where I am, how much fuel I got (don't want too much fuel at idle either), etc.
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FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

Correct, 4 iterations of 10% is 146.41%. Therefore I have to remove 31.7% in one shot to come back to normal. As opposed to 28.6% if I do a one shot 40%.

100/140 = 0.714; 1 - 0.714 = 28.6
100/146.41=0.683; 1 - 0.683 = 31.7

Just simple maths. :)
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by stevieturbo »

Adding 40% fuel to the main map is completely and utterly stupid.

Too much fuel can cause bogging down on opening the throttle in a similar way to too little fuel, and the wideband will probably still not give you the information you think you want to see.

But TBH, given you fail to understand the very easy concept of how to tune. I give up.

For the money you've probably wasted in fuel cocking about and getting nowhere, you could have paid the most expensive tuner in the world, on the most expensive dyno by now.
FrankCorrado
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by FrankCorrado »

stevieturbo wrote:Too much fuel can cause bogging down on opening the throttle in a similar way to too little fuel
Agreed, but if I go by increments of 10% that won't happen. Or if I reach a point there is so much fuel it bogs, it means it doesn't jerk anymore, which for me is a good conclusion to my test. Again, read "test" here, not "tuning".
stevieturbo wrote:and the wideband will probably still not give you the information you think you want to see.
Agreed totally. But again I am not looking at the wideband for this test, I need to know how the engine responds in order to tune it in the future, not how the wideband responds. I don't need to know that, useless at this point.
stevieturbo wrote:But TBH, given you fail to understand the very easy concept of how to tune. I give up.
I respect your opinion stevie, but you lost the point of this test: I am not tuning, mate.
When I will tune, yes your advices in the earlier posts will definitely be important and I did understand that. As said, that point in time is somewhere in the future, but I did understand.
stevieturbo wrote:For the money you've probably wasted in fuel cocking about and getting nowhere, you could have paid the most expensive tuner in the world, on the most expensive dyno by now.
Probably, but you lost the point here. I wouldn't learn a shit with a dyno unless the guy explains everything he is doing and the ones around here they are not! I know that cuz that's what happened 5 years ago when I went on the dyno and that pissed me off. Therefore if I need to change something later on, I don't know how it works, I don't know how to tune and I need to go on the dyno again and double the costs.
Besides, I like to spend time learning my engine. And that, you can't argue against.
So since I am not tuning "yet" and I am not doing anything dangerous to the engine as long as I go by small increments like Rick said, I'll test it out next time I get the car out and see if the output can help me understand something no one can explain without knowing how my engine exactly responds to fuel changes.
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Re: Tuning Transients

Post by stevieturbo »

If you make any changes at all, you are affecting the tune. Be it in a good or bad way.

So how adding fuel not tuning ? Raising the entire map for the reasons you are giving, which IS to try and make changes to transient response, is tuning, and a very wrong approach to tuning.
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