DTASwin rewrite

Discuss issues and tuning software like DTASWin, E-Race, MegaLogViewer(DTA), etc. Also post archive versions of firmware.
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Rob Stevens
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Rob Stevens »

DTA does this anyway via the 'recorded fuel correction' ?
stevieturbo
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by stevieturbo »

In theory the Lambda History function should do pretty much that...I just found it often went too much one way or the other.
Jon K
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Jon K »

The problem is I cannot correlate the map to the log easily. If you ever use VEMs or MS, you play the datalog like a movie, and the cursors move around the ignition and fuel maps as it plays. Hit a spot thats a little rich? Check the cursor, oh weird ok it's in a sport where the ignition timing is flat and the fuel was a little heavy. Adjust. Its just a much better way of tracking where you are and doing it offline is much nicer because you can see the effect without having to be on the car and applying things.
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stevieturbo
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by stevieturbo »

You can easily scroll through the log on either MLV or E-Race, it'll tell you via the MAP/RPM reading exactly where on the map you are ?

Obviously it's two sets of software to open, the log viewer and the tuning software. But it is straightforward ?

But as Rob says, via either recorded corrections or Lambda History, that should cover the fuel side of things.

Never used MS or VEMS though, so cant comment on either.
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Jon K »

stevieturbo wrote:You can easily scroll through the log on either MLV or E-Race, it'll tell you via the MAP/RPM reading exactly where on the map you are ?

Obviously it's two sets of software to open, the log viewer and the tuning software. But it is straightforward ?

But as Rob says, via either recorded corrections or Lambda History, that should cover the fuel side of things.

Never used MS or VEMS though, so cant comment on either.
You have to experience it to appreciate it. As good as I may be at math, no amount of saying "Ok, 147.6 kPA... 6,187 RPM... throttle pump %... actual AFR, ok check target AFR, ok..." works. Considering all of the compensations you have going on with a fully tuned car between coolant temp, air temp, accel, etc. the likelihood of you lining up an interpolated fuel/ignition bin vs. a log file is unlikely. By time ballpark it and it may or may not even make sense. Why is the inj msec supposed to be 2.8 but on the log its 3.1? So, do you make an adjustment blindly because you think it's X and hope that -8% fuel is ideal? No way man.

I am the main reason MLV was brought into the DTA scene - I reached out to Phil Tobin after having done a ton of MS work for BMWs and he introduced the DTA log format. It was literally the "auto tune" feature of MLV that drew me to it. I knew it was a good log viewer overall but being able to through an MSQ (tune file) and log file at it, telling it to ignore any accel/decel, coolant temp comp, etc. and analyze the MSQ target AFR vs actual AFR while stripping all of the transients out, building a new fuel table, saving it, and plopping it back in the car is amazing.

DTA has its correction history but personally I have no idea what it's doing. Does it work ALL the time? If so, I don't want it to. I don't want it trying to lean my actual 13.0:1 AFR during cold start up because my target AFR is 14.5:1 in that map point. I don't want it adjusting anything over 120 kPA. I don't want it looking at throttle transients and making adjustments on that - we don't have enough information available to really use that feature. I think I talked to Allan about it or other people on the forum and they said "Use it only if transients and compensations are turned off" - not very useful if you want to drive your car around town for 45 mins and then have it adjust. I used to drive 60 - 75 minutes to work each way and I'd just log on the way in, have MLV analyze it, save the adjusted map, load it on before leaving, drive 60 - 75 minutes home logging, feed that to MLV when I get in, and in a week I'd have a ridiculously awesome fuel map.
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ignitionautosport
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by ignitionautosport »

Jon K wrote:I used to drive 60 - 75 minutes to work each way and I'd just log on the way in, have MLV analyze it, save the adjusted map, load it on before leaving, drive 60 - 75 minutes home logging, feed that to MLV when I get in, and in a week I'd have a ridiculously awesome fuel map.
That is crazy useful.
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Alex DTA
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Alex DTA »

ignitionautosport wrote:
Jon K wrote:I used to drive 60 - 75 minutes to work each way and I'd just log on the way in, have MLV analyze it, save the adjusted map, load it on before leaving, drive 60 - 75 minutes home logging, feed that to MLV when I get in, and in a week I'd have a ridiculously awesome fuel map.
That is crazy useful.
I expect that's exactly how Allan imagined it working. However, I'll have to investigate further, based on:
Jon K wrote: I think I talked to Allan about it or other people on the forum and they said "Use it only if transients and compensations are turned off"
Rather than provide a way to do this in MLV or similiar, I'd prefer to get it working properly. However, writing a custom log viewer with all this information would be a massive project all by itself.
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Jon K »

ignitionautosport wrote:
Jon K wrote:I used to drive 60 - 75 minutes to work each way and I'd just log on the way in, have MLV analyze it, save the adjusted map, load it on before leaving, drive 60 - 75 minutes home logging, feed that to MLV when I get in, and in a week I'd have a ridiculously awesome fuel map.
That is crazy useful.
It really was. Considering MS was a lot more "basic" from a hardware level, I would have adjustments (what MS called EGO Correction) of like 1 - 2% with closed loop of. It was awesome - MS also had the option of a MAP sensor with a secondary reference for real time barometric correction which was nice.
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Jon K
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by Jon K »

sparrow wrote:
ignitionautosport wrote:
Jon K wrote:I used to drive 60 - 75 minutes to work each way and I'd just log on the way in, have MLV analyze it, save the adjusted map, load it on before leaving, drive 60 - 75 minutes home logging, feed that to MLV when I get in, and in a week I'd have a ridiculously awesome fuel map.
That is crazy useful.
I expect that's exactly how Allan imagined it working. However, I'll have to investigate further, based on:
Jon K wrote: I think I talked to Allan about it or other people on the forum and they said "Use it only if transients and compensations are turned off"
Rather than provide a way to do this in MLV or similiar, I'd prefer to get it working properly. However, writing a custom log viewer with all this information would be a massive project all by itself.
Yeah the only problem is we don't have any control/thresholds for what it may be doing. I'd like to be able to tell it not to store any corrections when the coolant compensation is active. Or, in a specific RPM/kPA range so it doesn't try adjusting my idle. Or if over certain kPA or RPM so it doesn't mess with in-boost areas. Or, maybe it does all this and we don't even know lol

Would be awesome to get MLV to accept the DTA tunes and adjust the logic to DTA stuff :(
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stevieturbo
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Re: DTASwin rewrite

Post by stevieturbo »

I think you're overthinking it a bit. I'm not saying whatever you're using on MS isnt useful, as I've never used it.

But for tuning and map correlation from logs...throttle enrichment is irrelevant, as during a pull it would be doing nothing.
Other compensations, yes the log should identify what corrections are in place but that seems to fall under a firmware change rather than a software change ?
But for the end game, again not that important because it's the base value you'd be changing anyway.
You just need to know which rpm/map site you're at in order to make those changes

Syvecs doesnt offer any AFR correction tables etc, nor what you describe with MS, and it's by far one of the easiest ecu's I've used to tune by using it's logging which is superb ( as well as it's closed loop control )

In many ways I'd agree it would be good to be able to turn closed loop off and on under varying conditions...on the other hand when you have a good closed loop setup, there really is no reason to ever want it turned off, other than under fault conditions.

From a correction point of view and what you refer to about cold start etc....DTA should offer lambda targets based on engine coolant temp etc. That way any correction tables produced would always be relevant if you wanted richer AFR's during warmup etc.

On my Syvecs closed loop is on all the time bar the first 30s to allow for sensor warmup. Obviously it switches off momentarily for things like launch, traction, throttle pump etc, that goes without saying. But given how well it works, I can see no reason to turn it off at all.


Perhaps a more comprehensive logging could be allowed when connected live to the ecu, and the more basic logging as is onboard ?

Is there enough bandwidth to stream lots of data when connected to the laptop form better tuning logging ?

And likewise a faster means of viewing those logs ? E-Race is very slow having to import the files, MLV is obviously better as you can load it immediately....you can even load into MLV when DTA hasnt finished downloading the log lol

I tend to do a pull, immediately save the log then display in the log viewer to see if any changes are required.
Having to shutdown the engine really slows that process, so if it was possible to stream live to laptop and/or be able to pull logs without killing the engine, that really makes life so much easier.
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